Companies which worked with PRR and used Shays into the 1940s

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tony22	Companies which worked with PRR and used Shays into the 1940s	Lead	[-]
Posts: 1 (02/04/09 05:23 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite	Hi everybody. Long time PRR follower and railroad modeler. I have been planning my new layout and for this one I intend to use a 2-truck Shay to depict a small logging or mining road which was independent, but collected product and then provided it to the PRR for delivery to other customers. I've done a bit of research and found references to the Glen White Coal & Lumber Co, around the Gallitzin area. It sounds like a promising prototype, but I wanted to find out if there were other such companies that might be suitable, but also with the possibility of having available a bit more info. The idea is to find a company and determine how it interfaced with the PRR - where, which engines did PRR use in that area, what other products, towns, and industries were in the vacinity. My roster includes motive power running from RS-1s and RS-3s to SDs, FAs, and two beautiful I1 Deks. Also an E8 or two for some passenger service. I can even bring forward a Y3/HH1 for special assignments. I'm pretty sure I could place almost all of these anywhere in PRR territory and have it be reasonably realistic. All help is greatly appreciated. Edit: I did a bit of research and found that the Warren, PA area also provides a good prospect for my needs. But in looking at some research it seems this part of the Northern District was covered by the Philadelphia & Erie RR, at least at the start of the 20th Century. Does anyone know if it always kept this branch name, or did it ever just get absorbed into the PRR? Last Edited By: tony22 02/04/09 10:27 PM. Edited 1 time.
rnetzlof		#1	[-]
Posts: 19 (02/05/09 11:56 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite	The P&E merged into the PRR May 1, 1907. As to Shays which worked along the P&E: The paper mill at Johnsonburg had a Shay which worked around the mill and switched cars in the huge wood yard. I believe it did that into the late 1940s or perhaps even early into the 1950s. At Sheffield, there was a large saw mill which shipped out on the P&E and received logs via the narrow gauge Tinesta Valley RR. The TV may have had a Shay but seemed to favor Climax and Heisler locomotives. The northern end of the Tionesta Valley was abandoned in the early 1940s. Corry PA was the home of the Climax locomotive. The plant sat right along the P&E in the heart of downtown Corry. On the Allegheny River, well south of Warren, the PRR interchanged with the Hickory Valley RR, a creature of the Wheeler and Dusenbury lumber interests, who had a mill at Endeavor, near East Hickory, which was across the river from West Hickory. W&D had a few Shays which spent most of their time fetching logs from the woods, but which also moved cars between the mill and the interchange. Don't know if that activity lasted into the 1940s though. Returning to Sheffield, the town was also served by a standard gauge railroad, the Sheffield and Tionesta, which ran from Sheffield down Tionesta Creek to (of all places) Tionesta. I don't recall whether it connected to the PRR at Tionesta, but it certainly did at Sheffield. Along that line, at Mayburg, there was a huge wood chemical factory, which was still in business in 1945. That would mean tank cars, including the wood "vinegar tanks" (think Ambroid kit) heading off into the boondocks from the P&E interchange. There were Shays on the S&T but I'm not sure if they lasted into the '40s. Bob Netzlof
tony22		#2	[-]
Posts: 2 (02/06/09 08:13 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite	Wow! Thanks Bob. This is great stuff. I have an awful lot to think about here. I did learn that the Deks were often used in the Wetsern areas to beat their way around the Alleghenies, so I think I have some real possibilities in keeping things reasonably correct. I'm curious, though - why would the Johnsonburg mill use a Shay as a yard engine? I mean, I guess many engines could be put to use doing a number of things, but wouldn't the yard have been pretty flat? An 0-6-0 would be something I'd picture more quickly for that kind of work. Would you know off-hand for each of these areas what the heaviest steam the PRR would have used for their related mainline efforts? They all seem to be within the same (general) area of PA, but I suspect the terrain may have driven choices more diverse that I might expect.
diesell48	shays	#3	[-]
Posts: 615 (02/06/09 12:49 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite	Great reply Mr. Netzloff. My only knowledge of this is from the Glen White Colliery. I believe that Shay only lasted until 1938. There was a whole discussion about this last year on this forum prior to the convention. The guy who gave the presentation about aerial photos certainly has much more knowledge than I do. There was also a picture of the Glen White Shay from the 1930s. The whole idea of Shays in the 1950s is fascinating... picture it ... the Shay runs its cars down to the interchange and gives them off to........ a PRR diesel! Bill
tony22		#4	[-]
Posts: 4 (02/06/09 01:08 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite	diesell48 wrote: ...The whole idea of Shays in the 1950s is fascinating... picture it ... the Shay runs its cars down to the interchange and gives them off to........ a PRR diesel! Bill Bill, that is exactly one of the things I want to try and capture. Some of the old fighters hanging on, doing their jobs while the new world (at the time ) begins to push them out. I'm even looking to see if it would make sense to still have an old slant-tender 0-6-0 trotting around in the yard while NW-2s are off moving things around. Add Northwestern PA scenery to this and it makes for a great picture. Last Edited By: tony22 02/07/09 09:41 AM. Edited 1 times.
rnetzlof		#5	[-]
Posts: 20 (02/06/09 10:48 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite	tony22 wrote: why would the Johnsonburg mill use a Shay as a yard engine? In the earlier years of the 20th century, much of the pulp wood for the paper mill was obtained locally. There was something called the Rolfe RR, closely associated with if not owned outright by the paper mill. It ran off into the woods to the west and northwest of Johnsonburg and brought pulpwood back to the storage yard, thence to the mill. When that closed down, they still had a need for handling cars around the mill, and still had a Shay, so... Bob Netzlof
tony22		#6	[-]
Posts: 6 (02/07/09 10:01 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite	Ah, that makes sense. I looked at the areas that you've identified on Google Earth, and I like the general terrain covered by these locations. Would you happen to know where (if) in this area there would have been a small to medium sized PRR yard where some of these products would have been brought? That may be too broad a question for the diversity of these locations, so since the Hickory Valley and S&T we know had interchanges with the PRR, which PRR yard(s) would have been the first destinations for this material? In an ideal world, it would be great if one of these were a mixed freight and small-time passenger service yard.
devansprr	Glen White	#7	[-]
Posts: 108 (02/09/09 12:10 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite	Tony, Unfortunately Glen White is out - shut down in '38-'39. I think someone somewhere has a picture of a Glen White shay. It tied right into the main at the curve - not much chance for industry. Glen White headed pretty far up the valley from the curve and up towards the ridge, but not all the way up - the mines were dug into the side of the mountain. Same valley as the current road - I'm on travel - no access to my files. Pre-diesel anyway. If you want to get a better idea of what was at the other locations, check out the 1938-1941 aerial photos that can be downloaded for free from the Penn Pilot web siterun by Penn State: www.pennpilot.psu.edu Navigating the site takes some getting used to, and be sure you download pictures at the highest resolution (usually 5-7 Mbyte). At this resolution rail cars can be resolved in nearly all photos, and automobiles in some of the "better" ones. Would help give you a sense of what was nearby. Dave Evans
rnetzlof	Mor eruminations on things past in the boondocks	#8	[-]
Posts: 21 (02/09/09 01:57 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite	Remember too that Shays and the other geared locomotives weren't just good at climbing hills. They also were flexible to handle sharp curves and irregular track. A place like the wood yard at the paper mill would exploit those properties. Remember too that Ford had a Shay as a plant switcher at their big Detroit works. Many contractors used Shays on the temporary tracks at large construction jobs, again because of their flexibility, not so much for their grade-climbing abilities. As to yards, that depends on what you mean by "a yard". Kane, some 20 - 25 miles northwest of Johnsonburg had been a disivion point on the P&E, with a roundhouse and sizable yard. Not long after the PRR took over, the two divisions were merged, leaving one long division running from Renovo to Erie. How long the engine house at Kane lasted I don't know. By the 1940s, it might not have been there. Some Modeler's License might be in order on this. However, there were small yards at Ridgway, Johnsonburg, and Kane where cars could be shuffled and stored as needed. Johnsonburg had another yard. The B&O (former BR&P) and Erie had a joint trackage arrangement between Bradford and Punxsutawney. Johnsonburg was the junction between the Erie-owned tracks to the north and the B&O-owned tracks to the south. As it was also at the foot of a long steep grade to the north, there was an engine terminal there as well as a several track yard. All this flitting about over hundreds of square miles can get confusing. You would do well to consult the antique topographic maps at historical.maptech.com for a look into the past. Bob Netzlof
tony22		#9	[-]
Posts: 7 (02/09/09 07:38 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite	Dave and Bob, thanks again. Looks like I have some more research to do. Be back after a bit...
tony22		#10	[-]
Posts: 8 (02/11/09 07:07 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite	devansprr wrote: If you want to get a better idea of what was at the other locations, check out the 1938-1941 aerial photos that can be downloaded for free from the Penn Pilot web siterun by Penn State: www.pennpilot.psu.edu Dave, what a great site! Thanks for telling me about it. I've downloaded a number of images and have been pouring over them. It turns out so far that both Warren and Sheffield had pretty good sized yards - both with turntables! I haven't yet explored Kane, Ridgway, or Johnsonburg. Interesting thing is that Warren and Sheffield are both "through" yards. This will make it tough for me. My layout space is 12 feet long but only 30-36" deep depending on where you stand. I'd either have to do some nasty selective compression or find if one of the other, smaller yards was a stub-end. That would be a little easier to fit. And I think I also found the rail line at Endeavor going into the woods for their logging operation. What a site!
diesell48	Glen White	#11	[-]
Posts: 617 (02/14/09 05:56 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite	Got to wondering if this company may have had their own rolling stock? Bill
tony22		#12	[-]
Posts: 9 (03/07/09 09:48 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite	It occurred to me I may be better off looking for a possible site somewhere between Altoona and Pittsburgh. If I do this I can then model an area that would support a rare flyby of the Broadway Limited, which I happen to also have on hand.

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Companies which worked with PRR and used Shays into the 1940s

Companies which worked with PRR and used Shays into the 1940s

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